Curse

zling · Jun 22, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

AB isnt the only way to get the title you know...
the duel of the houses(kurzick) and jade arena(luxon) is an excellent and fast way to faction farm. each run takes ~5 minutes and nets 400 factions.
and now with the improved blessing and hard mode you can farm factions while doing something else. you can work on the vanquisher title for echovald forest/jade sea while always in a blessing to work on your kurzick/luxon title or you can farm greens, golds, cash, whatever in those areas while under the blessing to get faction points as well as whatever else you're after...

think outside the box people, you'll be amazed at what you'll find

Dione Davore · Jun 22, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

And offcourse we shouldn't forget that you can AFK-farm it now in PvE.
2hours = 10.000 faction. Nice amount if you keep in mind that it's AFK-farming.

Rocky Raccoon · Jun 22, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ludo

Spoiled little kids? Spoiled because I only play a couple hours a day and I don't want my next month of game time spent trying to capture the basic level of these skills? Bullshit. I've already given up on them, personally. They are not worth the time required. It was a bad move on Anet's part.

That's a choice everyone has a right to make;Those who want to can, those who don't want can do something else.

SotiCoto · Jun 22, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

Who said you need to have the title? Who said you had to grind for the title? Who said you needed Kurzick/Luxon PvE skills?

No one.

Saying that it takes too much grind to get a title that you do not need, is not a valid argument. In my opinion, titles are supposed to be prestigious. When you display it, it should also show you spent considerable effort into attaining it; whether it's through grind or regular play.

Who said you need to buy the games?
Who said you need to have a computer?
Who said you need to eat and breath?

If people can be p!ssed off that the nearest supermarket (or any source of food) is 20 miles away and they don't have a car... then they're fully entitled to be p!ssed off at this...
Alternatively, maybe they're in no position to complain at either and should just shut up and starve to death.

Point: People buy the game for the fun... for the experience... and to do what can be done. People then finding out that "what can be done" and "the experience" involves an absolutely epic amount of NOT fun, it isn't a terribly pleasant discovery and they're not likely to appreciate.
Whether they HAVE to generally or not is irrelevant.

Neo Nugget · Jun 22, 2007, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Yes, it is waaay too high. I would actually like to play factions instead of try to get max on the title. Heck even 1 mill is alot, at least what i think.

The Legg · Jun 22, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dione Davore

And offcourse we shouldn't forget that you can AFK-farm it now in PvE.
2hours = 10.000 faction. Nice amount if you keep in mind that it's AFK-farming.

Care to elaborate?

And Qcho, care to elaborate on the luxon fff claim?

Anna Ryan · Jun 22, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

I really wonder what's the complaining about. Here is some of my calculation:

10 mill faction for r12 Kurzick/Luxon (max), get a full bar each day (10), donate that to your guild (make your own if you haven't have one) change it into 20k to the title. This way will require around 50 days of casual AB play.

Now let's go to LB and SS: I've been farming Show of Force + Requiem for a Brain like crazy on my necro to get those at max rank in 5 days, I have 9 other chars, so 50 days in total.

Seems pretty equal to me. Note that Kurzick/Luxon is account based and SS/LB is not.

Yet I don't complaign, it got me a new goal. And AB isn't as mind-numbing as LB/SS... Get to know a few people who you think are good and team up with them. Yeah, i realise that takes time and effort, something you guys clearly DON'T want to invest in this game, suit yourself I'd say...

Star Alfur · Jun 22, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Believe the maximum is fine, considering it is an account-wide KoaBD+1.

I do like the idea of this though:

Quote:

Originally Posted by seut

Leave the title max where it is, but max out the skills at rank5.

noblepaladin · Jun 22, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

People are not actually complaining about titles, they are complaining that it is too difficult to get the Faction PvE skills (and then to get them to a higher level). "You don't need the skills" is a poor argument. What if you can only play a Wammo with Frenzy and Mending until you have grinded 10 mil faction? You don't HAVE/NEED to use anything other than Frenzy or Mending to play the game. And half the people who keep saying you don't HAVE or NEED the PvE skills to beat the game complain when Searing Flames got nerfed. You don't need that skill either.

It is very fast to reach level 5-6 sunspear or 3-4 lightbringer. If you know what you are doing, it is very easy to reach level 8-9 sunspear or 4-5 lightbringer with only two or three hours of farming. ANet's mantra has always been to be friendly to casual players. You can get any build or any skillset you want in an hour (assuming you have beaten the game and/or have access to all the map locations). The hardcore players will generally have access to more skills because they have the gold to buy more skills, but if a casual player wanted to make a MM build on his SS necro, he can get the exact same one fairly quickly. Hardcore players don't get access to unique skills that casual players can't get quickly. They do get unique access to high level titles, armor skins, and weapon skins that casual players cannot afford (but those don't really affect game play).

Getting the Factions skills are already hard enough, but there is a significant difference between Ether Nightmare giving -4 degen vs -8 degen, with Save Yourselves lasting 3 seconds vs 6 seconds, or Elemental Lord lasting 30 seconds vs 60 seconds. The difference is simply too much (in addition to the difficulty of getting the skills in the first place). At least make it like Sunspear where people can get at least 2/3s of the skill progression easier. I am not proposing that we make the title easier, but make it easier to get the skills and to get them to a higher level. This might involve introducing new levels to the alliance title, (instead of 12 levels, make it 16 with 4 more levels at lower cutoffs, that way people grinding for prestige will still be unique while people who just want to play will get reasonably high level skills, or do something else similar).

Some "casual" grind should be required. Sunspear and Lightbringer can be both maxed simultaneously in hard mode easily in under 20 hours total. Thats like 1-2 weeks of play for a casual player to get his sunspear skills, lightbringers signet+gaze, and lightbringer +dam% and damage reduction to maximum. Getting the levels up on the Faction skills are virtually unattainable for casual players. Also, casual players generally don't FFF, those runs require multiple players and are usually done by guilds that farm faction all day.

Destro Maniak · Jun 22, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

LOL A HUGE LOL
SO all of you became so interested about the skills. You say the max should be lowered to 5mil or lets even say 2,5mil. For those people who dont wanna grind its also a long grind. You dont need to max to use these titles. Its enought to have 100k donated. The difference between isnt huge with other ranks.

Anyway I am bored of all these sayings that "factions skills are godly" "I..Must..Getttt!" "I hate grind" This thread wont go anywere Im not gonna defend the title to stay anymore bye

Andisa Kalorn · Jun 22, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

I think that the title should be left alone. People who did grind that much deserve to have their grind recognized. I can sorta understand that as I was annoyed at elite skill tomes undermining my legendary skill hunter title. But then, I don't mind too much because I did the title for me and I know that I did the work.

But the way the skills scale needs to be changed. I agree with the suggestion that the skills should max at a lower rank. Or the skills need to be completely dissassociated with the faction titles altogether. Maxing should require some work, yes, but not that amount of grind.

SotiCoto · Jun 22, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anna Ryan

I really wonder what's the complaining about. Here is some of my calculation:

10 mill faction for r12 Kurzick/Luxon (max), get a full bar each day (10), donate that to your guild (make your own if you haven't have one) change it into 20k to the title. This way will require around 50 days of casual AB play.

Now let's go to LB and SS: I've been farming Show of Force + Requiem for a Brain like crazy on my necro to get those at max rank in 5 days, I have 9 other chars, so 50 days in total.

Seems pretty equal to me. Note that Kurzick/Luxon is account based and SS/LB is not.

Yet I don't complaign, it got me a new goal. And AB isn't as mind-numbing as LB/SS... Get to know a few people who you think are good and team up with them. Yeah, i realise that takes time and effort, something you guys clearly DON'T want to invest in this game, suit yourself I'd say...

Now see... the problem in your post is the sections bolded in the quote there.

Those are aspects of your experience that you don't seem to realise aren't naturally valid for just anyone and everyone.
For instance, I couldn't possibly "casually" play Alliance Battles for 50 days. Anything more than ONE match in a day for me becomes a grind... I really don't like PvPing... and to me Alliance Battling IS a mind-numbing grind.
Raising Sunspear points at least to Castellan level is easy as pie for me since it can be done throughout the entire Nightfall Campaign. Lightbringer is a little more awkward since the kills that add to it don't really become numerous until the end... though for the record it is still fun sometimes to fight through Nightfallen Jahai for Lightbringer Points (I did it to get to 5th Rank)... But getting the kind of points required for the Kurzick (or Luxon) faction title ranks through blessings and killing things in the respective areas takes an absolutely cosmic amount of time by comparison... and whether it is worthwhile or not can only really depend on whether the player has an epic number of characters over which the effect is spread or not.

Evilsod · Jun 22, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Alliance Battles are the slowest method of gaining faction around. The Lutgardis Run is better. The Jade Arena is better. Doing boss runs is better. The Eternal Grove boss run works out at ~2500 faction in ~15 minutes. So thats 10k an hour. 20k to the title in 1 hour. 100k in 5 hours, 10 million in 500 hours.

500 hours to max the title. About 2000 runs in Eternal Grove. Its definatly attainable... nobody is forcing you to max it. Spear of Fury and Save Yourselves are the only 1s i see worth using. Spear of Fury hits the 3adren breakpoint at r4 and Save Yourselves hits the 4s breakpoint at r3.

Anna Ryan · Jun 22, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Uhm, for the record, AB isn't like your regular PvP, you can test fun PvE or PvP builds in it, doesn't matter, no need to flash ranks or have uber builds (hell, ANY class with the most idiotic build can find a team in AB). Though SotiCoto, I really wonder what you DO like.

Since you like comparing things to the real life, let's compare this:
How about an optional competition, with the grand prize a car. You, the casual player answer randomly to your own knowledge to the questions, perfectly fine. Now the second contestant is someone who is really obsessed with cars and answers all of them right. He gets the car, you get a bicycle. Sorry, to me that seems fair.

Same with GW, those skills aren't a must, yet I do understand the reasoning behind your argument and saying you want them for all, perfectly fine, now EARN it. Don't expect everything to get to you on a silver plate. Can't do AB that much, be satisfied that you atleast got your (bicylce) skill. Simple as that.
The 'I bought the game I want everything' mentality won't get you anywhere. I want a tormented fire staff, well, I'm earning every k on my own thank you, just by questing and casual farming.

Andisa Kalorn · Jun 22, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anna Ryan

Since you like comparing things to the real life, let's compare this:
How about an optional competition, with the grand prize a car. You, the casual player answer randomly to your own knowledge to the questions, perfectly fine. Now the second contestant is someone who is really obsessed with cars and answers all of them right. He gets the car, you get a bicycle. Sorry, to me that seems fair.

Wrong. It's more like this:
The grand prize is a car, but the questions are about bicycles. So the person obsessed with cars loses to the person obsessed with bicycles. The person who wants the car gets the bicycle, the person who prefers bicycles gets the car. Furthermore, the person obsessed with bicycles answered these questions without knowing it was for a competition in the first place.

The pve skills are of no use to someone who prefers to spend their time doing AB, FA, or FFF. They are of use to those who like to quest, do missions, vanquish, etc. But the pve skills are given to the former group and not the latter, which is stupid. And the latter need to do the activities of the former to use them for other things.

Also, a tormented fire staff is a LOT easier to get than maxing these pve skills. And the tormented fire staff has NO effect on your gameplay, while these skills do.

It is the skins and titles which should be made for those who like to grind. Not the effectiveness of skills.

GloryFox · Jun 22, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

I think people need to take into consideration the amount of Time it takes for each title to measure if something is broken.

Amount of Time to get titles playing 2 to 8 hours a day.

Protector or Guardian of Tyria 2 days to 1 week
Protector or Guardian of Cantha 2 days to 1 week
Protector or Guardian of Elona 2 days to 1 week
Legendary Sunspear 1 day to 1 week (I know it's possible to get it in 1 day I've done it in under 8 hours and it was NOT in Remains of Sahlahja) (4 out of 10 characters to go)
Holy Lightbringer 2 days to 1 week using the Remains of Sahlahja run

Now compare this to the Faction requirements of Allegiance rank playing 2 to 8 hours a day and you can see whats broken here.

At 2 hours a day donating 20,000 [40,000 goes to title] faction (donating 10,000 [20,000 faction towards your title] an hour our of Lutguardis for 2 hours) is 250 (6.25 weeks at 40 hours a week) hours of pure faction farming playtime.

That does not sound fun to me when other titles are far easier to obtain but it clearly can be done as a full time job.

imkey · Jun 22, 2007, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anna Ryan

10 mill faction for r12 Kurzick/Luxon (max), get a full bar each day (10), donate that to your guild (make your own if you haven't have one) change it into 20k to the title. This way will require around 50 days of casual AB play.

you mean 500 Days right?
20,000 x 50 = 1 mil...

Frostlight · Jun 22, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andisa Kalorn

Wrong. It's more like this:
The grand prize is a car, but the questions are about bicycles. So the person obsessed with cars loses to the person obsessed with bicycles. The person who wants the car gets the bicycle, the person who prefers bicycles gets the car. Furthermore, the person obsessed with bicycles answered these questions without knowing it was for a competition in the first place.

The pve skills are of no use to someone who prefers to spend their time doing AB, FA, or FFF. They are of use to those who like to quest, do missions, vanquish, etc. But the pve skills are given to the former group and not the latter, which is stupid. And the latter need to do the activities of the former to use them for other things.

Also, a tormented fire staff is a LOT easier to get than maxing these pve skills. And the tormented fire staff has NO effect on your gameplay, while these skills do.

It is the skins and titles which should be made for those who like to grind. Not the effectiveness of skills.

This excellent summary is what should be stuck on the door to Anet's design area.

The designers seem to be in denial that players tend to spend serious time on only a few aspects of the game that they enjoy most. Otherwise I can't see why they continue to tie certain rewards to nontrivial amounts of diametrically opposed activites.

agrios · Jun 22, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Good Idea!!

Keep the max rank the way it is now but max the skills at rank 5. So the hard core can still show their vanity titles and we can use the skills. Another double-faction weekend wouldnt hurt also.

No Grind!
Yes Life!

Evilsod · Jun 23, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Seriously... get over it. The titles reach a useful limit at around rank 4 (550k) donated. At least the only 2 skills worth using do. Shadow Sanctuary isn't exactly great. Ether Nightmare sucks. Selfless Spirit, nah. Spear of Fury, a damn good skill, 1 of the most balanced implemented. Save Yourselves, hits 4seconds at rank 3, do you REALLY need to go for 5 seconds? Aura of Might, does the Scythe REALLY need more damage?! Triple Shot is pathetic. etc.

I think some people are complaining for the sake of it...